Yes to be in the faith and worship the Pope or mary is not the bible christian faith.  It is a sham andthe sad thing is Jesus is not going to let ones in that do not trust in him alone for salvation.  Jesus blood cleans the man and Jesus is alone to king.  If one does not trust this he goes to a eternal fire on hell.

This is fantastic.  I grew up in a very strict RCC household.  Parents took pilgrimages, brother almost became a priest, my sister is a nun.  Yet, it never sat correctly with me.  God tugged on my heart for many years until I finally got it.  All those rituals and praying to saints and the like are blasphemistic.  It's hard to see that clearly when you grew up the way I did.  I assumed that my rebellion against religion was the typical one most people trying to "find themselves" go through.  It wasn't a qualm against God though.  It was against the RCC.  Nice writing.

My dad was saved out of the RCC.... I praise God for the Baptist Pastor that door knocked him and my mum...... especially these days with all the modern day evangelisim techniques that would suggest door knocking to be a redundant task.  

Indeed, that has bugged me at times.  My husband was raised Catholic.  He claim that one CAN be a Christian in Catholic church.  That plowed against my grains.... thinking of those "idols".  Thanks for bringing this out!  No, he is not Catholic but born again Christian.

@sarahsD - @Zulize - @mjh905 - Thanks for your comments

Love in Christ Jesus,the King of Kings

dale

@daleyboy77 - thanks for your topics!

@ShadowsFallToo - Thanks for the comment ...drop by again :)

dale

"We'll start at the very beginning.  A Very good place to start..."

I am going to be harsh in my words.  but not in my heart...please do not be offended. 

First Paragraph
First of all, the fact that you were a nominal Catholic means that you didn't care enough about your religion to really care to know enough about it in the first place (providing that by "nominal" you mean "In name only").  Therefore it is likely that even if you were told about the Gospel, it wouldn't have made a difference in your life.  If you had been a good Catholic, or even had an interest, you would have asked why on these things.  Catholics have a better grip on why Jesus had to die (theology wise) than most protestants.  They remind themselves of their own sin by leaving the Saviour on the cross!

Second Paragraph
I am part of that community.  I fully believe that there are some (many) Catholics that are saved.  The truth of Salvation is the Truth, and the Catholics teach it whether you heard it in your Church or not.  My Dad grew up in a Methodist Church.  He was not just a nominal Methodist.  He had perfect attendance all through child hood and his teenage years.  He was saved after he was 20 years old because he never heard the Gospel in all those 20 years of being in that Church.  Does that mean that there are no saved people in the Methodist Church?  NO!  it just means that he went to a crappy Church!  Could that be the case with your Catholic Church?  I know some Churches in just about EVERY denomination that probably have not heard the Gospel in several generations!  It just means that those are crappy churches.  To make a general statement like you have is not logical in the least, nor is it Christian.  You're right.  Only God can see the heart.  So don't tell me you can, and then judge accordingly.

Matt. Passage (paragraphs 3-6)
This is a great verse to hang yourself with.  Have you produced bad fruit since you have been saved?  have you looked at a woman with lust?  have you ever swore?  have you ever sinned in your anger or even sinned at all?  Then you, according to your definition, have produced bad fruit, and since you have, that means, as you so conveniently pointed out for me, by your own interpretation, you CANNOT be a Christian, and neither can I.  What you have pointed out is blasphemy because it says that unless you do not sin after you are saved then you are not saved.  If this is true, not even the apostle Paul was saved (Romans 7), and the Sacrifice means less to you than it does to the nominal Catholic.

Paragraph 7
There are some things that I agree with you on about the Catholic Church.  "Holy Father" being one of them.  Jesus yelled at someone calling Him "Good Teacher".  they should heed that.  The rest, I'll take issue with.  I do not know of many Protestant Churches that do not have a cross AND a picture of Jesus somewhere in the Church, yet I do not see Protestants having a problem with praying to God/Jesus while looking at the Cross.  for more on my apple crate on that subject, stick around the Campfire.  it'll come up.  Protestants rail Catholics about idolatry, then sing "I will cling to the Old rugged Cross."  Bad form.  I might point out that Jesus Himself lost MULTITUDES of followers because he told them that if they did not eat his flesh and drink His blood, they could have no place in the Kingdom of God.  When they said "This is a difficult teaching, who can accept it?"  He didn't say "oh, I meant only in effigy."  He stood his ground.  Do not discount scripture (John 6).  Also, to the Catholics (you would understand it better if you were a good Catholic, or even cared to ask one about it like I did), praying to Mary and the dead saints is the same thing as asking a Brother to pray for you.  You pray to Brother Sam to pray for you.  Same thing to them.

Exodus 20:4
Now go read about the bronze serpent in Numbers 21, and then in II Kings 18, and remember that the Cross did NOT make the difference for you.

Now about your statement about the Pope:  OF  COURSE  HE  SAID  THAT!!!!!!!  You're saying that Evangelicalism is the only way to Heaven, what makes you any different?  It has been preached from every SBC, Church Of God, Methodist, and even Presbyterian church for years on end.  don't say that the Pope is different from the Pastors of Protestantism.

Cowboy

Hi Dale,

Excellent stuff. The links to HBKS and the "Good test" can be found on livingwaters.com. On the free resources page, you should find a "link to us" section with the html codes that you can cut+paste via your xanga private page. 

Cowboy_Christian, in light of what you said, how would you personally define the gospel? Original sin? The Fruits of the Spirit?

It seems to me that you and I do indeed come from very different cultures!  Where I live (I didn't see where you were from), it is rare to see a Catholic on the streets.  it is more likely that you will see what I call a "Southern Christian"  or a "Cultural Christian" when I've been out witnessing.  round here, people figure that if they've been to Church once in their entire life, they are right with God.  when they start to feel a need for salvation, they simply go to Church again.  It's kind of like putting a bandaid on a severed arm, but back to our conversation...  I would be interested to know your thoughts about pictures and statues depicting the crucifixion.  I have an opinion that you and I might highly dissagre on, but as your opinions are food for my thoughts, here's maybe some for yours:
I believe that idolatry is not a corporate sin in the Catholic Church.  I think it is a personal one.  Also, I do not think that Protestants are free from the exact same type of idolatry, I think that this too is a personal breaking of the 2nd commandment.  you read my opinion about the worship of the cross in Protestant Churches, BUT, I would not say that all protestant (indeed any that I can think of off hand) preach it, but they perpetuate the problem anyway.  So all that to say that I do not think all Catholics are idolaterers, but I know that there are some.  May I also point out that there are many protestant churches who seem to worship the dollar more than the Saviour, which is just as bad--no--I think it is worse.  The dollar will not point you toward Christ, a Crucifix might, in a weird sort of way.

Believe it or not, I did that today.  My Boss happens to be Catholic.  When I asked Him where He would spend Eternity, he said "Heaven," (he DID look at me funny because we both know that the other is a Christian)  When I asked him why, he said "Because even when I was, and am yet still a sinner, Christ died for me."  That is Salvation.  That is from a Catholic. 

Transsubstantiation is a teaching that can be argued using the Bible.  the fact that it is a symbol can only be argued using reality.  I myself would err on the side of transsubstantiation (that word takes forever to write!) because of that.  I try to stay away from the subject as much as I can, because while I don't agree that only a priest can do it, I dare not argue with the Red Letters.  Purgatory, you and I agree on.  Salvation by works, I understand from the Catholics that I know to be a teaching about the ASSURANCE of salvation, not salvation itself.  That can be argued through I John and James both, and any good Church would teach that Salvation doesn't cost you a thing, but the assurance of it will.  Is it not about works (or the lack thereof) that you are judging the RCC?  Is it not true that you are saying that because you see no works, they are not Christians?  a quote from you:  "Where are they ?...i have yet to
meet one,all of the catholics i have met do not display the fruits of a
christian and have never heard the truth of salvation."  Are you not saying, then, that they are unsaved because they do not show you works?

I realized that my statement would be confusing as I wrote it because it is contradictory by its very Nature, but this is exactly what you did here.  you said in your post:  "So many times i have heard from people in the christian community
"There are some Roman catholics that are saved".Which always leaves me
wondering how can they know ? I thought it was only God that could see
the heart?"  you have done exactly the same thing I have done, only pessimistically.  I have said that I know RCs who are saved, and then say that you cannot say there aren't because you cannot see their heart.  YOU said that I cannot say that there ARE RCs that are saved because I cannot see their heart.  both of us are saying that the other cannot see the heart, then we make a statement that can only be made by one who can see the heart.  Sounds pretty stupid when somebody else says it, huh?

I realize what the point was that you were making, but to make the point, you used a verse that leaves no room for the point you were trying to make...and then you made that damning point even clearer!  Here's what you said: "

Mat 7:16-20 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?  Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.  A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore bytheirfruits ye shall know them.

Notice verse 18 : A good tree (true christian) cannot bring forth evil fruit.

It does not say might not,nor does it say probably will not,No it says " cannot "

Either way, I know your point, and I will speak accordingly from now on.  back to your comment about the conviction of sin.  I agree that God will show them this if they study His word.  Here are some things that I have been taught that were false teachings I have been convicted of:

Drinking is wrong:  a very outspoken belief of almost ALL churches I have grown up in (not including the one I attend now), and a belief of my parents and parents-in-law.  blatantly shot down in the Bible.  The Evils of interracial marriage...also a concept blatantly shot down in the Bible.  Many things that are believed by many protestant Churches are false teachings, and yet I sit under them.  I am not convicted by these teachings because I do not believe or practice them, and I do not throw away all the good teaching because there are some bad ones mixed in wih them.  Baptists don't drink, Presbyterians baptize their infants and then do not do Believers' baptism, Church of God misuses the gift of tounges, Church of Christ dis believes in music, Methodists do not believe in Eternal Security and baptize their infants.  none of this means I should make a different Church, it simply means I need to do my own studying.

As I said...our cultures are apparently different.  As unlikely as it is that you find a catholic on the street who knows the true way of Salvation, it is equally unlikely to find people on the street here who do not claim to be of some sort of Protestant (usually Baptist) denomination who know the true reason that people are saved.  Most do not even believe that God will send them to Hell, because He is Loving and they are bassically good people!!!

You got my point about pictures of Jesus.  people DON'T know what He looked like, and yet that does not keep them from looking at a painting and saying "that's Jesus right there."

I disagree that all fundamentalist Christians think that Jesus is the only way.  They will SAY that they believe that, but if you ask a Church of Christ person if a Baptist is going to Hell, if he is not trying to be diplomatic, he'll say yes.  If you ask a Baptist why they are the only ones who are right, they will say "because the first Christians were called anabaptists..."  If you ask a Missionary Baptist why nobody else is saved, they'll say "Because they don't believe only in the Authorized 1611 King James Bible!"

Fundamentalist Christians seldom agree that Jesus is the only way.  They might say that when pushed, but t is human nature to believe that unless somebody agrees with you, they are wrong.  Catholics are no different.  As a matter of fact, on baptism,  MANY Protestant Churches believe that Baptism is essential to Salvation.  In fact, I have been told by friends of mine that they were not allowed to join a Church unless they have been baptized BY  THAT  CHURCH!  to prove salvation.  that is not biblical either.

To find out what Catholics really believe, I think it is best to find out from actual Catholics.  So I asked one of my other Catholic friends (not my Boss, and one who converted FROM protestantism) where to go, and he told me.

CLICK  HERE  to hear it from the horses' mouths.  Granted, they do not know everything about Protestants, but then again Protestants mis-speak the Catholic faith as well. (here is a case in point)

As a general rule, I do not at all give credit to people who observe one faith and tell you what another one believes.  If you want un-biased answers, ask somebody who is actually still a Catholic.

Cowboy

@cowboy_christian - Ok Cowboy im not even going to attempt to answer all of your post but if you require an answer on something you noticed i missed please ask away ,but please keep it short for the benefit of other readers.

QUOTE :

"Believe it or not, I did that today.  My Boss happens to be Catholic.  When I asked Him where He would spend Eternity, he said "Heaven," (he DID look at me funny because we both know that the other is a Christian)  When I asked him why, he said "Because even when I was, and am yet still a sinner, Christ died for me."  That is Salvation.  That is from a Catholic.  "

And the evidence of his salvation (or fruits) will be . Obedience to God through His Word.Although your boss is saying the right things Cowboy,does his life match that of a christian?..Now i know as well as you do that Mary cannot answer our prayers,if your boss is indeed saved and studying Gods Word he will have noticed this :

1Ti 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

It may well be that your boss is a new believer but needs teaching and the evidence of this will be when he hears the truth he will obey it.Speak to him again and point out the above verse and see how he reacts.

Of course this is just one of many errors in the rcc.Your point that all churches have error of some sort is not valid.The errors in the rcc are major heresies that were rejected centuries ago by men of God like Martin Luther and Charles Haddon Spurgeon plus the puritans that rightly pointed out that the rcc was antichrist.They were not just small discressions on what sort of music to play.

QUOTE :

"1) Transsubstantiation is a teaching that can be argued using the Bible. 2) Is it not about works (or the lack thereof) that you are judging the RCC?  Is it not true that you are saying that because you see no works, they are not Christians? 3) both of us are saying that the other cannot see the heart, then we make a statement that can only be made by one who can see the heart.  Sounds pretty stupid when somebody else says it, huh?

1)That is one of the very major heresies i was speaking of..Jesus is not a wafer.Church history is usefull to study as these topics have allready been discussed . 2) No,if it was good works i was looking for we could conclude that mormons or Jehovahs witnesses are saved as they both have good works.A true christian will be noticable by his/her love and obedinence of  the Word of God as one example.However only God knows the heart and we can make mistakes so the only accurate judgement we can make is regarding someone that is not saved which is exactly what Jesus was talking about in Mathew 7.hopefully that last point answers no 3)

dale

sorry about the weird format.  it didn't look like that when I copied it!

Cowboy

@daleyboy77 -   I disagree that the differences are small as in just type of music.  The Church Of God teaches straight up heresy by saying that to be filled by the Holy Spirit you have to speak in tongues!  That's works salvation as much as the Catholic Church teaches.  Also, Jesus said "Take, eat, this IS my body", and This IS my blood"  as many times as He used the words "like" or "as"  He did not use it there.  That is where the teaching comes from.  The teaching is valid.  Now the teaching about only the priest being able to do this transformation might indeed be bogus, but not the Eucharist itself (or Himself, or whatever).

sorry for my long winded debates.

Cowboy